Does anyone else think its kind of weird that we are supposedly saved by Jesus being crucified?

I mean if you think of it, technically he was a human sacrifice to "save us", isnt that a rather pagan concept to have to sacrifice something to a God to appease him and save the rest of the world? i just read somewhere that someone said "It is by His stripes (Jesus being beaten before being crucified) that we are healed." I mean isnt that a pretty bizarre pagan concept to beat or kill something to save others if you think about it logically and rationally? I mean, taking it to extremes, it reminds me of the rumours that are spread in Africa that if you have sex with a virgin or a baby it will cure you of AIDS (which is usually done in the form of rape) a bad thing happens to one person who is "sacrificed" (the virgin or baby is raped) & its supposed to save someone else.. i mean i know thats not the perfect analogy but you get the gist of what i am saying. just weird. i dont say this to offend anyone, it just doesnt make rational sense if you think about it.. forget the "faith" stuff

Mike M- As for being the true perfect Sacrifice, im not saying he wasnt, im saying, i dont get how one needs to kill something or someone to "save" others, why did his sacrifice and suffering save us? i mean just because 1 person gets whipped and bailed to a cross doesnt stop others suffering. i person suffering doesnt prevent others from suffering, especially when the one person that suffered was purposely picked out to be whipped and killed, its not like he donated blood to help others..

Jesus didn't want to be crucified.
He didn't plan to be crucified to save anybody either!

JESUS SAVES WITH HIS WORDS!! not with his crucifixion.

Jesus was crucified for political reasons. Jewish church was in danger... its priest were going to lose money and power if people kept hearing Jesus and started doing what he preached. Jesus saw everybody as an equal, and that was against the classist society of the time where the not accepted had to PAY for acceptance. So, if people heard Jesus and understood we are ALL equal, the business would've failed.

Now, why Jesus didn't hide or avoid being crucified???

Because in his teachings he always talked about a life beyond this life, he said his kingdom was not from this world, he talked about his father in heaven, he said people should not care about this world, but prepare to go to the other. He encouraged people to leave everything behind -richness, lifestyle, family- so that they could prepare themselves to go to heaven.
His certainty about what he believed was soooo strong, that knowing he was going to be in the kingdom of God soon, he accepted the political consequences of his actions BEFORE DENYING what he was teaching. If he had hidden or avoided dying, nobody would have believed that the kingdom of God is real. He died like a hero, standing for his belief.

So, what is weird is the way they talk to us about crucifixion -in the judaic way, where sacrifice was indeed a tradition. In the way they teach us, Jesus sounds like a big loser. He wasn't. Once you understand crucifixion in a different way, you can understand his strength, conviction, love, and committment to his truth and his people. When you see that, then you can actually see him as a great master and as a real child of God.

You're right. it wasn't a good analogy.

Here's the idea:

-Sin causes death
-We are all sinners, we all deserve death
-Jesus who was perfect and sinless, doesnt need or deserve death
-Jesus died sinless and thus, he becomes the sacrifice

If it's hard to believe then I understand, but that's the Christian concept in a nutshell

no it isnt weird. and I say that, cuz i belive jesus, god , mary, etc...

He wasn't just human, He was God in human form...

The only true perfect Sacrifice

nope.

No, that's how the Jews thought things should be done to make their god happy. They still have a holiday where a Rabbi "puts all their sins" into a goat and sends it off to die...hence the word SCAPEGOAT

Hey, don't insult the pagans. Not all of them go for the human sacrifice thing. But you are onto something with the Christianity-Pagan connection, as many Christian rites--decorating the Christmas tree, holiday lights, the Easter bunny, the egg hunts, etc.--were originally pagan traditions. Early Christians changed a few things so pagans would be sort of "forced" to convert.

As for the believe in African cultures that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS, I think some guy invented that as a way to get away with rape. Not a terrible analogy--sacrifice an innocent to save someone else, and does it ever work?

There's a lot about Christianity I find odd, but then I'm an agnostic Jew.

I find it funny that God had to "sacrifice" himself to save us from God's own punishment against us.

It is completely and utterly ridiculous. First of all, getting smacked around a little and being dead for 3 days is a trivial sacrifice. Think of the millions of people who suffer for months and die of cancers. Think of the treatment of Jews by the Nazis in WWII. Jesus ain't got nothing on those people!

In any case, God, being God, could have come up with a far less barbaric way to save us from God's punishment. The fact that he didn't tells me that Christianity cannot be the product of a real deity.

No. Jesus was perfect and sinless, therefore He has saved is from eternal damnation (for the people who will accept Him)

I feel sorry for you. I hope you don't wait too long to find out the truth. There will be a time that it is too late.

His Salvation does not pertain to YOU anyway! You do not want Him, don't worry about it then! (He ONLY came to save the ones who wanted Him in the first place!) NOT the "ones" who don't want Him! <')))><

Mithras went through the same story, even crucifiction.

Jesus is a retelling of the Mithras myth.

i dont think its wierd at all. god was kind enough 2 sacrafice his son 4 US. & jesus loved everyone, even people who hated him, enough 2 die for them. it is the ultimate sacrafice. i am a firm believer in the bible & jesus & god, etc. i luv them. i hope u dont wait 2 long 2 learn & accept the truth & believe the bible.

wow Nelly hold on! The virgin Mary was not raped. The holy sprig came upon her. being raped is totally different, its having sex forced upon you. Ya its a little rational that we would actually do that to someone- But you if really believe, Jesus did save us because he loved us that much- I know it sounds a little off- No you are not offending me at all. Its a logical question. I am trying to suggest you watch this but I know that Mel Gibson's film the Passion of the Christ got alot bad criticism but It really wakes you up on what Christ endured for us and our salvation. Great question!

Welcome to the world of Gnostics. A mixed of Christianity and Pagaism. When Jesus told his disciples that he would have to get crucified, die, and rise from the dead in order to fulfill his order, completely satisfies what a sacrificial lamb symbolizes. Jesus's word still exists in the True Followers.

Is there anything more noble in the world than to die for a friend... would you do it? Jesus died out of his own free will because he loved us so much...

for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

Each of us deserves to die for the sin that we have committed but Jesus who didn't have to die and did not deserve it because he was without sin died so that we didn't have to die and go to hell.

Jesus paid the debt that we owed for all the sin and those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved from eternal death and when they die will go to heaven to live eternally. Jesus rose from the dead and is sitting in Heaven at the Right Hand of God as I speak these words

No, we deserved the punishment of death for our sins. Jesus took that punishment for us on the cross because He loved us. He sacrificed His life to save us. And it wasn't that He had to appease "A" God. You make it sound like they were two completely different entities. God is a trinity, 3 in 1.

Ok first of all, we have to stop having the concept that it was Jesus' "dying on the cross" that saved us, that was part of what he had to do to save us. Him dying on the cross was the last and final act. All through out his life he was saving us, through his miracles and parables and not only by dying. (now THAT is the weird concept).

You need to know the entire picture to be able to understand the journey of Christ here on earth. The prophecy was fulfilled through him. Also your right mankind was very pagan to hurt and deny the Son of God. Yet, how loving and awesome is the love of Christ that he came knowing his fate and in the midst of his earthly pain he still had compassion for the ones that harmed him. The real point that your missing is that HE AROSE AGAIN and ascended to Heaven. Death could not hold him and mankind could not keep him from fulfilling the promises of God.

I find it completely overwhelming to think of how Jesus died to save me. Because we are sinful, we are destined to die. That is how we must pay the debt for our sin. His "punishment" on the cross paid the price (paid the debt) for our sin - all sin that was and will be, for all mankind, forever. How many parents of terminally ill children would volunteer to take that illness so their children could live? That's what Jesus did for us, He died so we won't have to, and He rose again!

To answer your question. Here's the analogy:

Society is so offended by some crimes, it requires the person to pay with his life. God is so offended by our sin, He has said only the sacrifice of a sinless life will pay our debt in full. No man can live a sinless life; therefore, no man can pay his debt to God.

Is there anyone in this planet Earth dare claiming "I'm sinless?" None... Can you find one?

That's why Jesus who's Son of God and sinless once come to earth to be sacrificed for us..... to clear out all of our debts of sins..

Now we who believe in Jesus, we're righteous according to God's sight... THAT IS GRACE!! We don't deserve..

Because of one sinless man has saved all sinned man.

I agree, if there is a God it was completely unnecessary for his/her/it's son to be tortured for our sins considering this God would be omnipotent and could just make up the rules for entry into this eternal paradise. You would think that with the supposed grace and kindness of God that he/she/it could have acted without such brutal malice towards any being, direct relative or not.

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for
many for the remission of sins. Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20.

Whatever it is that God the Father requires, only God the Son Jesus Christ can provide. My being crucified won't ever get me or anyone else saved because I'll just be getting what I deserve. Only someone who isn't buried in debt can pay off my debts to God. That "someone" is the LORD God the Son Jesus Christ. Does it make perfect sense? Not to my finite mind it doesn't. That is why we ought to never "forget the faith stuff." But then even this faith, is but by His Grace. No one can have faith in Christ unless God's Holy Spirit graciously bestows such a faith to an otherwise stiff-necked unbeliever, like myself. It's all by His Grace, His Sovereign Grace.

Oh, and please check out what John Piper said about this same subject. Here's the link...

No, it is not pagan. Men are pagan and that was why God felt He had to send his perfect son to die on the cross and shed his blood for our sins to that we could have everlasting life!

Jesus had a choice, just like we do, he did not have to die, he could have called ten thousand angles to stop his Crucifixion. But, he too loved us and wanted to save our souls and obey His Holy Father's command.

So Jesus allowed himself to be crucified and die on the cross for us. But we shill would have had everlasting life if he had not been resurrected. This is why it is not pagan. Jesus arose from the death and ascended into heaven with His Father. And there we will be too if we will only believe and accept Jesus as our Savior.

Religion is a bizarre thing when looked upon objectively from the outside. It always seems to claim a truth which is beyond explanation and logic. If this were not so it would cease to be engaging in the first place. Religion is the product for those who want to buy the dream that theyll live on for ever, rather than accepting the logical reality that they too will die.

Pickles, you really have a warped perception of spiritual and biblical beginnings. The God of the old testament required a perfect unblemished lamb for a sacrifice for sins. Pagan practices were perverted from Gods required first sacrifice. Not the other way around. Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh was the perfect lamb of God , because He was sinless and perfect. Jesus was the only sacrifice God would accept for the sin of the whole world. Whether you understand Gods requirement for sin or not , you will still be judged by it. If you reject Jesus and what he has done for you , you will pay your own sin debt, which is spiritual and physical death. Then in the end those who reject Him will spend eternity separated from God and thrown into the lake of fire with Satan and his angels.

It doesn't have to be this way, but the choice is yours. Continue making fun of Gods way and Jesus Christ, or find out the truth before it's too late. As long as you have breath , you have a chance to believe the truth.

.....Can G-d forgive sins without bloodshed?

Human sacrifices are strictly forbidden (e.g., Leviticus18:21, 24-25;
Deuteronomy 18:10; Jeremiah 7:31, 19: 5; Ezekiel 23:37, 39) as per G-d.

The whole issue is to respect human life for we are created in the image of G-d. Murdering human life is prohibited.

(Genesis 9:6) "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of G-d has G-d made man.

(Numbers 35:33). "So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who has shed it!"

No Jews ever taught that without blood, atonement was unavailable.

There was no "stock" teaching in Judaism about blood atonement being all that christians say it is. There is abundant teaching in Judaism about the importance of obedience (and giving sacrifices would be part of that obedience). However, blood-sacrifice was hardly the only means of atonement, as Christians believe the NT teaches.

(Hos 6:6)"For I desire mercy and not sacrifices, and knowledge of G-d rather than burnt offerings"

(Jer 7:22) For when I freed your fathers from the land of Egypt, I did not speak with them or command them concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them. Do my bidding . . ."

(Mic 6:6) "Shall I approach Him with burnt offerings with calves, a year old? Would the Lord be pleased with 1000 rams . . . what the Lord requires of you only to do justice, to love goodness and walk humbly with your G-d"

There is atonement through
repentance (II Samuel 12:13-14, Jonah 3:10, Lev. 26:40-42, Ezek. 18:21-32, 33:11-16),kindness (Prov. 16:6, Daniel 4:24), prayer (Hos. 14:2-3,I Kings 8:46-50, Daniel 9:19), removal of idolatry (Is.27:9),punishment (Is. 40:1, Lam. 4:22), death (Is. 22:14), flour offerings (Lev. 5:11-13), money (Ex. 30:15), jewelry (Num. 31:50),and incense (Num. 17:11-12).

Many should ask why G-d allows all other methods of attonement besides Blood sacrafice.

The Jewish concept of sacrifice (qorban) can be very confusing to a non-Jew. Non-Jews tend to think of qorban (translated as "sacrifice") as some way of paying for sins (as in "J-sus died for your sins").

This is very far from what Torah teaches. Qorban (sacrifice) was never the ONLY way to be close to HaShem (G-d), it was only A way.

There has always been turning to G-d, prayer, being a good person. . . just read the Torah and this is apparent.
Start with Adam and Eve and move right along to Cain and Abel. Cain could have risen above sin -- without a blood sacrifice.

Genesis chapter 4. Qorban translates in concept to a "drawing near to HaShem." Most qorbans **had nothing to do with sin at all** - they were used to thank HaShem and also to try and draw nearer to Him spiritually.

unity0151.
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Quote:
"so if "Human sacrifices are strictly forbidden (e.g., Leviticus18:21, 24-25;" why did they *do* Jesus then to please God?"

...Why did Who do what to Jesus?

*Some* Jews might have wanted to kill Jesus, but the Jews did not kill Jesus. (Jesus supposedly was crucified).

The crimes for which Jesus was crucified (which in and of itself is a ROMAN means of execution) was not blasphemny but rather, ACCORDING TO TWO OF THE GOSPALS at least, was SEDITION.

According to Matthew and Luke, Jesus disrupts the order in the Temple Precincts, (most specifically, the Stoa) wherein money was changed from the Roman coinage (which bore the image of cseasar who was revered as a god) to Temple currency.

As the pagan money would bear the image which smacks of idolatry (in Judaism), nothing but the holy currency could be used on the Temple grounds. Jesus nearly incited a riot and thelogical and polemic justifications / excuses aside, this was in direct violation of Rome and Rome took interest in Jesus as a potential insurrectionist.

Jesus's arrest and trial was consistent with ROME"S protocol, for by arresting and then crucifying a Jewish insurrectionist, it would send a STRONG message to Jews who were celebrating a holiday based on Freedom, the price they knew all to well for defying Rome.

It should also be noted that the NT's accounts themselves do not agree as to the particulars of how the Jesus man was tried by and executed by the Roman authorities.

Two of the three gospels which give a detailed description do not even correllate their stories. In Mark, there isn't even a garden passion story. One book has Jesus cautioning his disciples to purchase swords, another has him blasting Peter for using one.

In one story everyone knew who Jesus was, in another, they had to ask Jesus himself if he was the one they were looking for!
However, when seen as as a total composite, the real raison detre for the NTs complilation becomes apparent: primary written as a means to legitimize christianity with the Romans (as to grant them protected religious status) and to delegitimize Judaism and the Jews (in order to have Rome revoke the protected religion status Judaism was afforded, albeit at a very high price.

Since Rome's definition of religion was that which was ancient or pre-dated the founding of Rome (for which they could not justify), since Rome had crucified Christianity's leader, they saw the group as an insurrectionist cult rather than an established religion. When the early Christians tried to fall back to its Judaism as its basis, that too had no support because by 45-50 CE (the time the gospels were penned and distributed), the Christian sect was no longer part of Judaism as it no longer espoused anything directly related to Judaism.
As such, the fabrication of the Jews as murderers and plotters againt the "son of god" was forged.

unity0151.
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Its not that man should know that he is capable of sin...and it is not that man cannot be perfect....those are smoke screen excuses , used by christians to incorporate its replacement theories of Judaism, and is a conveiniant way to use "SIN" as a *Selectively* supposed reason to have its proposed Jesus dogma.

G-d was not incomplete before Jesus.

unity0151.

God set the rules for marriage---where "the two shall become one flesh"

Jesus marries us, his Church and then because the two have become one flesh---he is now going to suffer and die because of our sin but it has to be a sacrifice thing because he has done nothing to kill him ---but when he takes up our suffering because of our sin---we take up his righteousness because of the marriage so we still die---this is just justice from the sin, but---we go through death into his Kingdom to be with him forever to live happily ever after as they say.

yes, he was truly dead and yes he truly came back to life---he is God---he is life

No shut your mouth or jesus will kill you.

If he couldn't save himself, why would anybody think he can save anyone.