So, on June 5, 2007 we were joined by yet another pseudo-analyst, John M. This moron posted a question headed 鈥淪outh Africa the next Zimbabwe?鈥?In the body of the question he claims that the apartheid government kept crime and HIV/AIDS under control. He says the apartheid government was not discriminating against people but the ANC government is doing that while giving jobs to illiterate black people.
He goes on to write a long list of drivel 鈥?including accusing the government for the myth that raping a babies cures AIDS.
He then gets applause from many people. But I am only interested to get clarity from some regulars. Bull who start his answer by saying; 鈥淵our assessment of the situation is accurate in its entirety鈥? And Bad Brad for saying: 鈥淣ot much to say after that. You've said it all.鈥?And Mrs General Proud who commented: 鈥渋 agree 100% with you鈥?br>
Now can you guys, including those whom I didn鈥檛 quote here, tell us 鈥?the uninformed - how did the apartheid government
1. manage to keep crime low. Your answer must take into account the reality that the
police service and the courts functioned differently for black and white people
then;
2. manage to control HIV/AIDS
3. didn鈥檛 discriminate against people (when providing jobs)
And here is a by-question that is a logical follow-up on the statement of illiterate black people.
4. how did the apartheid government deal with the illiterate black people other than not giving them jobs that were supposed to be given to the people? Hello. The propositions of the aforementioned analysist are rather fallacious, or that is, derived from incorrect reasons. I shall expound below.
1. Crime was kept low only at times. Before the late 80s, and indeed prior to P.W. Botha鈥檚 tenure, crime was kept low by increased enforcement. The state security police was given very extensive right to stop, check and detain Black citizens without legal consequences, as these powers were given constitutional right.
Moreover, apart from the brutal suppression of violence or crime, Black South Africans were placed in Bantustans, which were self-governing territories, wholly segregated from white towns. In those areas, crime or violence borne out of tension between different Black minorities did occur, but it was of no consequence or magnitude for the white government, which mostly catered for its white population. And since crime was not able to spread to or affect the white population, in the government view, there was no such problem.
However after 1985, townships became ungovernable and huge riots spread across the country. Violence then got out of control and by 1990 over 2000 (predominantly Blacks citizens) had been killed. Petty crime was not a problem. But violence was, and it caused the country to remain in 鈥渟tate of emergency鈥?where the usual constitution is suspended for 5 years.
2.HIV and AIDS were only discovered as a problematic and lethal disease around the 70/80s and then began to pick up momentum. So during apartheid, there simply was not an AIDS threat, as it was not known. However, today South Africa has an HIV/AIDS problem, due to the momentous growth of the disease鈥檚 spread. Some criticise inactivity of the Mandela government, at a time when it was necessary to intervene. Indeed, Mandela did not directly hold public speeches or campaign for tackling AIDS, and he himself conceded that he was too busy to do so. However again, AIDS was not such an issue during apartheid, so we cannot compare the two entities.
3. The apartheid regime discriminated heavily and unapologetically against Black and 鈥渃oloured鈥?people. They spent around 500% less on Black education, which was segregated and which taught that the white race was superior and that the students are second-rate citizens [sic]. Jobs, trade union membership, access to public amenities, even access to white areas was negated to Black people. This is total discrimination. However, the adherent of apartheid is alluding to the fact that, PW Botha鈥檚 鈥淭otal Strategy鈥?(c.1986-7) tried to change these things, but only cosmetically. Botha increased spending on black education, but it still did not equal levels of white. He also opened all jobs to black people, and desegregated certain public areas. However, this was only done to show the rest of the world that apartheid is changing, whereas the government still discriminated and refused to give 鈥渕ajority rule鈥? that is, refused to give black citizens place in the government, as they would have a majority, due to the representative proportions of delegates to population.
4. 鈥渋lliterate people鈥?simply did not get jobs under apartheid. There were no special welfare schemes for those and only in the final stages of apartheid, post 1986 and especially during de Klerk was something pragmatic done to cater for the needs of the majority in South Africa- the Black citizens.
The entire argument of the analytic is fallacious and I even hate to read it. He exploits incorrect data, which is given by the cosmetic reforms of apartheid. Good Question.
Star for you.
But good luck in getting a response from Bradmorris9 the coward. If you are ONLY interested in getting clarity then read properly and answer sincerely without changing the actual statements made to suit your purpose
You are reading what you want to hear and not what was said.
Where does he accuse the government for the myth that raping babies cures AIDS?
Or state that the government didn鈥檛 discriminate against people (when providing jobs)
etc.etc Moloi - the thrust of his question was a comparison between the former Rhodesia and what used to be South Africa.
He fleshed out out his question with facts and statistics; South Africa does have rampant unemployment. The government is racist. AIDS is murdering the population. There is a genocidal campaign against Afrikaans farmers underway.
At no point did he say there was no discrimination against blacks under the NP when seeking work. We all know there was.
Yes, the police and courts functioned differently for whites and blacks under apartheid, but they functioned. That's not the case anymore.
There was no AIDS epidemic when the NP ran the country.
The apartheid government actually tried to educate the masses to prevent illiteracy.
At no point did he accuse the government of creating the myth that raping babies cures AIDS. But I am. By allowing it to perpetuate, and offering beetroot and garlic as a cure, the ANC is just as complicit as the men that perpetrate this savage crime.
Lastly, don't call this guy a moron, my friend, he's not, and it just cheapens your debate. Hi Zimmy,
You've got a bit of a bad morning don't you?
Well back to your question, yes those are all questions that's unfortunately boiling down to Apartheid (Which I'm so gatvol off), but on the subject I will answer this.
I think that back in the Apartheid days (and remember I am white, I was too young to really and grew up in a family fighting for the "freedom" of black people), the black people was ruled by a system that if they weren't doing as they were told, action was taken by throwing them into jails, beating them ext. It is only logical to think that back then the Black people were scared of the Authorities.
We white people were a lot less than the black people, but we had the "power" to make decisions.
Also we had a task team that would control things like riots, hence the happening of Soweto day to name one, teams were sent in to sort out the violence and nonsense using the power of rubber bullets.
Look at today鈥檚 riots, it goes on for days and days and days with people murdering, killing their own people. Burning tires, throwing rocks, damaging the belongings of other.
We don't have a system anymore that make the criminal fear for his life, back then we had death sentences, look at the Serial Killers our own Bonnie and Clyde, Clyde got death penalty, he got hanged, while Bonnie, his accomplice was in jail for more than 20 years. Today, South Africa got the second highest rate of Serial Killers, they sit a few years and then walk out free from jail.
I just think that the "Iron fist" that held this county "in place" (and I put it in brackets because we weren't the best of countries), turned into a useless paralysed hand that got things out of control like crime for instance. We had THE BEST AIRFORCE, THE BEST FIGHTER PILOTS IN THE WORLD, what went wrong, we don鈥檛 even qualify for it anymore?
Now I ask you, Zimmy, what do you think changed since it is now a Black Government?
Why do we wait for everything (i.e. passports, ID鈥檚 ext鈥?), why is the crime rate so high? Why does the black people still vote for the ANC after being promised houses and cars and stuff but most of the black people in South Africa still stay in poor conditions? Why Zimmy, and please don鈥檛 tell me that you鈥檝e got a better life now because there are still a lot of Black people suffering out there, are the Government so corrupt? Why did the Rand get so poor? Why on earth did South Africa get such a 鈥渓aid back鈥?attitude towards jobs and job creation? Why is 98% of Metro Councils in the red? Why do black people not have the tendency to pay? Have you seen the houses and cars taken back by our banks because nobody pays? Have you?
Now please stop with this Apartheid nonsense. I assume you鈥檙e a non-white South African.
1. Well the Apartheid Government managed to keep crime down with adequate funding for police departments and a sense of pride with in the police force. As well as appropriate punishment for lawbreakers. Unlike what we see today.
2. By providing a good healthcare system not run by corrupt officials that seem to be more interested in there own financial health the that of the country.
3. Well when last did you have to work with a government official on ground level?? Its all a bunch of under paid, unmotivated workers. That will lose out on 1 mount's pay dew to a strike for an extra R216.00 average on a paycheck. (that alone sounds pretty illiterate to me...)
4. Sure the Apartheid government did give jobs to white South Africans just like the ANC is doing now towards non-white South Africans. At least in the apartheid government "illiterate" white people did not receive highly paid government jobs.
I sincerely hope South Africa does not end up like another Zimbabwe. But if things continue at the rate it鈥檚 going the future looks rather grim. I love this country and everybody that lives here. We should stop the finger pointing. Stop being part of the problem and all be a part of the solution.
I hope I didn鈥檛 offend you in any way. But its Cleary not a money problem but defiantly a political problem. That鈥檚 all John M wanted to say.
Proudly South African
Joburg What you conveniently ignore is that violence was fomented by the ANC as part of their strategy to make South Africa ungovernable prior 1994. You also fail to mention that Mandela had formed the MK way back in 1960 and had declared war on the then Government. That he used child soldiers in this war and they had often beeen the architect of their own illiteracy by burning down schools etc. Remember - Liberation before Education.
As far as Law and Order is concerned we followed our own culture that if you committed an offence you were taken to Court and if found guilty sentenced to jail or in murder situations hanged. It worked for most people and South Africa was a far more peacable Society, then other than the Communist rabble who preached hatred and violence, than it is today.
Hospitals and all Public Services worked -even for Blacks- but you dont mention that the "apartheid" Government built the biggest Hospital in Africa -Baragwanath- solely for the use of Black people and neither do you mention that many Whites worked in this Hospital alongside numerous overseas Medical graduates and dispensed healthcare at little or no cost to those requiring it.
Regarding employment you always look at the worst scenario completely ignoring that things were rapidly changing from the mid 80's onwards and that more and more races of all colours were being welcomed into the workplace.You also have to look back in time at the ANC's disregard for young Blacks with their Liberation before Education and that many paid the price through being unable to hold down any kind of meaningful employment.
You ignore the terrorism visited on the Townships by the Mandela's with their "with these matches and petrol" policies and the sheer intimidation of a generation of people by the ANC.
As for HIV/AIDS both Mbeki and the witchdoctor Beetroot committed genocide against millions and should be cahrged with a gross violation of Human Rights in the Hague and sentenced to life. I have no idea how and if they did any of that stuff, I'm a bit behind on my conspiracy theories. Firstly I do not believe it fair to label John M a 'moron", his question was not laced with hatred or provocative in any way and in my opinion was asked in a very polite manner.
I will sum up the answer to your questions in one simple assertion, during apartheid there was a culture of discipline, law and order created and nurtured by the government of that era, the ANC government does not approve of discipline or law and order, that is the difference.
They have created a culture of violence, corruption and nepotism through their policies and corrupt approach to almost all facets of governance, this is directly a result of their "liberation before education" approach during apartheid.
If the top is rotten............ |
