How do you solve this problem?

This little QH cross mare is a doll all around and is ridden by a 5 year old girl without any issues - she is super super quiet. She does however have a glitch that I admit, am not too overly sure how to solve. When you tie her and saddle her up - she pulls back, leans on the pressure (no struggle) and lays down. Hmmmm. This is only when you tack her up. The issue with this mare is me having zero information on past history with her and what I do know of her is she isnt totally sound. My guess is she is mildly navicular? Ive urged my client to have the vet come and see her but unfortunatley hasnt been there yet. Anyhow - Iam wondering if this is a pain thing? Ulcerous? Or just a bad vice? What Ive done is tack her up tied, and untied. Touched her all over, worked with a whip with her (strictly as a distance contact tool and not a diciplinary aid) and when she went to pull back upon putting the saddle on, applied a tiny bit of pressure to her bumm and she went forward into the pressure at which that time I released all pressure. It went well and since then, she hasnt once pulled this on me in 2 months or more. However, when a lady came to see her the other day for her little girl (this mare is currently for sale), she pulled this stunt in front of the lady. Sometimes I just think they are smarter than we really think and she quite enjoys her relaxed lifestyle and quite frankly doesnt want to be bothered hahaha. What do you think? What should I try with her? Is this a fear thing? What I dont want to do is play predadtor either and make the pressure at the bumm thing cause more problems. Anyone dealt with this before? And please - I dont want any forceful tactics...keep this realistic. Experienced answers only please.

Thanks in advance! :)

John W - Ive done this - over and over. She stands quiet and falls asleep. Continuously relaxed body language and gives me no indication of fear with the saddle at all...its only when she is tied up and only has she ever done it once with me...we nicely corrected it and she never forgot. The day I wasnt there and my cleint (PS - I dont own this horse its a clients horse) was showing her to some people who were interested in her, she pulled this stunt. Luckily the viewers were experienced and handled it well..but this is a KID safe horse we are talking about here. A horse who is consistently ridden by a 5 year old, super quiet and every once in a while she pulls this...
I suppose she just needs the consistency of pressure to the bumm? Iam concerned though, that this is a pain issue too...

sounds like she is claustrophobic I would try putting the saddle on and taking it off without her being tied up take into the middle of a round pen and put the cinch on but don't tighten it and do this over and over until you can tighten up the cinch without her having a anxiety attack

Edit Ok I still think it might have to do with her being claustrophobic but I have to ask how is she when you tie her up to take off the tack or do you tie her up and personally I think that if she only does it when you tack her up I just wouldn't tie her up I never tie mine up they are always ground tied, there are times like this you may never find out the reason and work around it

A friend of mine had an Arab that did this if she was tied alone, its like she fainted. When we tied another horse near her she would be fine. Try and see if this works for you. We could never figure out why this mare did this, maybe she was lonely LOL

When being asked to work, sometimes some horses will lay down (under saddle) when the work is just way over their heads and they are completely overwhelmed mentally or physically. My guess is that before you got her, whoever broke her to ride or tried to put a saddle on her did a very poor job of introducing it to her and as a result, the mare felt completely overwhelmed and laid down to escape the pressure (thus it is a fear response and is a defense mechanism). I would continue to tie her when saddling, but make sure that there is a quick-release mechanism in case she gets tangled and you need to get her out. I would try using a rope halter and tying her with a quick release knot. Have a lunge whip handy, but you probably won't need it. By using a rope halter (and possibly with the assistance of the whip- either a gesture towards the hind end or a tap on the rump to get her to step forward- whatever works for her) she will learn that by staying in one place or walking forward she will escape the pressure, and that she only feels the pressure if she backs up. The idea is to teach her that standing tied without pressure on the rope or halter is a safe place to be, but if she puts pressure on herself by pulling, it's obnoxious and irritating for her. Be very careful not to frighten her when she is backing up or pulling, but to get her to move forward and then release the pressure (as you know horses learn by the release of pressure). It sounds like she somehow never quite understood that by walking forward towards where she was tied she gets a release of pressure, so instead she would lay down to find the release. You should be able to correct the problem with some time and effort just by helping her to understand that laying down is not where she finds a relase. If she does go down, use your lunge whip to tap her lightly on the rump over and over again until she stands (not hard enough to really cause any pain, but just to really annoy her), so she learns that laying down while tied is just annoying- and is not a release for her.

Is it only when you tighten the cinch that she lays down? I have heard of this before, where a horse will buckle his front knees and drop down when you tighten the cinch. I've also heard varying opinions as to why. Some say there is a nerve right where the cinch lies, behind the front legs, which is sometimes overly sensitive in some horses and causes them to momentarily buckle their knees or lie down.

I think I would try tacking her up in small stages and see if you can avoid triggering her to lie down. I would also work with her in a round pen and not tie her or restrain her so she doesn't feel like she has to pull back when you go to saddle her. Would she run from the saddle? Or is it just the cinching up process? If it's the cinch, tighten it in small increments, walking her almost constantly, in between tightenings.

Your vet might have some answers for you, and you could do a lot of experimenting to see if she is in pain or afraid or just can't help herself but it makes her lie down.

Here's a similar question that I answered several months ago, you might get some ideas from it, if your situation is in any way the same:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...

Horses are not conniving and they do not scheme or have thought processes of devising a plan for their future. This horse obviously has a problem that has not been resolved. Temporary changes in behavior are indicative of inadequate understanding or incomplete training. And you are correct, she could very well be having some kind of health/pain issue. My understanding of getting your horse to stand tied does not include having your horse move forward from pressure on the rear. Perhaps you should seek some assistance for her. She is unpredictable and this makes her a dangerous horse - not a horse for a child. Pulling back could be a fear issue, bad experiences from her past, any number of things. Hope you are able to help her and get it worked out.

Is she pulling back after you tighten the girth? If so, It could be caused because the cinch is cutting her wind off and she can't breath, so she has no choice but to panic. If the cinch is not tightened yet it sounds like she is just behaving badly because she can get away with it.
I know you said she was kid safe, but in my opinion that is not a safe horse for a kid to be around. Learning to saddle a horse is part of the learning process and it would not be safe for a child to be involved in saddling this mare.
If it's just bad behavior, I can't tell you how to fix the problem because you wouldn't approve.
I don't want to sound offensive, but to me a kid horse is 100% safe for kids to be around. (Minus the obvious things horses can do without meaning to hurt someone).
I hope you can get her fixed so she can be a great kids horse.

She could have a condition called narcolepsy. These horses respond either to stress or boredom by falling down asleep- you can often diagnose them by looking for scrapes on her front knees. It's a big flag for narcolepsy in horses to do it during saddling and girthing- they stress about expecting pain or discomfort and down they go!

Did you ever have an ornery uncle that would tickle you until you wet yourself? Same thing, seriously. It sounds like the mare is "cinchy" and when you tighten up the cinch, it does put pressure on a certain nerve and is sort of like you are tickling her mercilessly and she simply can't control what she is doing. No amount of teaching or discipline is going to change it...it is not a pain issue...simply do NOT tie her when tightening up the cinch...tighten her slightly, walk her around, and continue the process in small increments until you get the cinch like you want it. I personally wouldn't even tie her up with the saddle on at all, just let the lead rope hang, and I will almost guarantee you that you will not see it happen again. When someone comes to look at her, leave her untied and explain why, be honest.