Some answers to a question posted by Jeez on AIDS, Ayiza is labelled a denialist鈥?.I want to hoist his flag鈥?.I know I鈥檒l be accused of doing what the ANC or Mbeki believe in鈥︹€?it doesn鈥檛 matter anymore鈥︹€an anyone show me a quote from Ayiza that support labelling him an AIDS denialist鈥︹€ would even accept if there could be proof that by inference he denied the existence of AIDS鈥?.
I agree with Ayiza, nobody has ever died from AIDS鈥?.people die from curable or controllable diseases, but because their immune system has Acquired a Deficiency, their bodies are unable to naturally (even with medication) fight the diseases and they die鈥︹€?then we talk of AIDS-related deaths鈥︹€ot AIDS-caused deaths鈥?there is a big difference there鈥?.I鈥檓 aware that some people don鈥檛 want us to discuss this truth鈥?.that is why Alf repeated what we know鈥?i.e. the lies that Thabo Mbeki is an AIDS denialist鈥? until today, nobody has provided proof that TM has ever denied the existence of AIDS鈥?.Ayiza is now being accused of being a denialist鈥︹€?I don鈥檛 want him to fall to the same fate that befell TM鈥︹€an someone show me where did Ayiza deny the existence of AIDS鈥︹€?br>
But more worrying to me is the low standard of some answers received from matter of this gravity鈥︹€?in addition, those answers are highly prejudicial鈥?.if all would have genuinely read the question and the link provided, they would have seen that the survey, involving 4 510 interviews, conducted in the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, France, China, India, Mexico, Brazil and South Africa. I submit that South Africa alone couldn鈥檛 have accounted for the 40%......because the base number was evenly spread, and SA can鈥檛 be 40% of that number鈥?. Ayiza says 鈥淭hat's because the likes of you (the media) under the influences of pharmaceutical companies are pushing the perception that ARV's are like a cure鈥濃€︹€?can somebody honestly find fault in that statement given the findings of the survey鈥︹€?.the survey found that, 鈥淢any people also harbor misconceptions about the availability of HIV/Aids treatments, according to the survey. Almost 50% of respondents believed that most HIV-infected patients were receiving treatment, when in reality the figure is closer to one in five, based on 2006 data鈥? The leader of the survey, Dr Martin then says this, "When people believe the disease is not fatal and that there is a cure, that's because we haven't educated them well," So, why was Ayiza crucified鈥or telling the truth鈥r just it is Ayiza鈥︹€ompare that, with the 鈥渃losing-of-the-eye-attitude鈥?adopted by most, save for Carpe Diem鈥︹€fter Smiley posted this, 鈥淥nly the black people think it's not fatal and that's why they carry on like that鈥?br>
Just to prove how prejudicial some people are鈥?.turniton closes his answer to the question by this鈥?. 鈥淚 guess no surprises here, in Africa especially - people follow the example set by their leaders鈥濃€︹€?he has not told who they follow in France, for an example鈥? *ADD****
Okay, Alfie鈥︹€?your point on Ayiza is taken. But let鈥檚 go to the TM one鈥? I read the book鈥t鈥檚 very long but easier to read compared to Suresh鈥檚 one鈥︹€?On Page 758 in that book, Thabo Mbeki: The Dream Deferred, Mark Gevisser quote TM as follows;
鈥淲hen I asked him in 2007 how he felt about having to withdraw from the AIDS debate, he told me that it was very 鈥榰nfortunate鈥?that his initiative had been 鈥榙rowned鈥? in order to suppress what he (Mbeki) maintained was vital and legitimate public inquiry. 鈥楢 campaign was launched that, I鈥檝e said that HIV does not cause AIDS, which I never did, and all sorts of other things, all these charges about genocide, and so on. The consequence of which was to stop the scientific inquiry, and I鈥檓 afraid that doesn鈥檛 solve the probel! Very, very regrettable鈥欌€? Phew Zim - that was a long post and I am not going to answer each and every point. Firstly I never accused Ayiza of being a denialist -I merely pointed out his lack of knowledge on the issue. Secondly it has been well documented here and elsewhere that Mbeki is an AIDS denialist and here is further proof:
http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=166...
Mbeki's role in the whole debate is nothing short of obfuscation,deceipt and plain lies about his personal position but the proof is in the pudding. South Africa's record under his watch regarding the approach and treatment od AIDS says it all.
Turniton can speak for himself but I interpreted his statement as being how many have become confused and misinformed by the wrong messages sent out by Mbeki and Beetroot - including Ayiza.
Zim - I have no contacts in the Guardian and quite frankly I wouldnt buy the Paper. However, your last point on Mbeki sums it up in that neither has Mbeki said that HIV does cause AIDS ( he did say the opposite at the Durban AIDS Conference that started the whole ball rolling) and that is where the mixed messages and confusion arises.
Zim -The reason that Mbeki has to be clear and not ambivalent on the question is because he is the President of the Country and South Africa has one of the highest infection rates of HIV in the World. Many look to him for Leadership and his denialism and use of Beetroot to promote vegetables has caused many deaths.
As regards the Durban Tapes ask the ANC -same as you should ask them about the disappearance of Beetroot's criminal record in Botswana once the Sunday Times printed their story. In any event there were enough delegates at the Conference who heard him and will attest to what he said including the UN Representative in Africa who has gone on to describe him and Beetroot as lunatics.
But the whole point Zim is that SA's treatment of HIV/AIDS victims should not exist on the views of one or two people when there is irrefutable evidence out there of its causes and irrefutable proof of successful treatment programmes. This falls into the category that marks Mbeki's reign i.e He knows everything and those who oppose him are shunted out of the way.He surrounds himself with "yes" men and tolerates no views on any subject different to his. I see no link of any kind between the Media and the Drugs Manufacturers each having their own agenda. At a guess the Media have leapt on the situation to expose Mbeki and Beetroot in an effort to save SA's international reputation that has been badly tarnished by their positions.
Zim - I dont agree with you that there is a view held in other Countries that there is a cure for AIDS and that ARV's are the cure. All that ARV's do is manage the process by keeping the immune system running. They are currently trying to develop a vaccine against HIV/AIDS but last I read the trials had been called off in the US. To the best of my knowledge there is no cure at present for HIV/AIDS and apart from what I mentioned ARV's can extend the life of infected people and give them a better quality of life. The best "cure" is education and prevention.
This story comes to mind but I cannot remember the full detail because it goes back donkeys years. We were in a Chemist in Windsor looking for a particular drug and showed the package/bottle to the Pharmacist. He asked where we got it as it was unavailable in the UK although he had knowledge of it. We told him Johannesburg and he responded that many drugs that were available in Africa were not available in the West because the Drugs Companies used Africa as an experimental zone for drugs before releasing them Worldwide. Now how true his story is I dont know but it makes you think at a different level. Well said. You are really strong! I've totally given up on people being fair. They say the world is not fair, but we forget that we create the unfairness we see. I saw Jeez's question but was put off by the comment from Smiley. But you ddin't give up. How I wish I had your guts. Unfortanetly, Jeez's question showed that despite all the awareness campaigns, most ppl still have a distorted view of AIDS; and its not just her view that ppl dont understand its fatal.
The best, if not the only, way to limit the devastation this disease causes is to inform yourself totally and from unbiased point of view; but there are so many mixed messages flying around (and it appears we SAcans arent the only ones), how can you blame ppl for not knowing the full facts?
Madiba is right; AIDS has escalated from a pandemic to a human rights issue, but we will be very short sighted indeed if think its only an issue in SA. Some of Ayiza's answers are weird, but I read this one and agree with you that they were intimidating him. I must admit that I could have easily fell into a trap of castigating him if I saw that question before your statement.
The less said about Smiley, the better.
PS Good point, Zim. Styviesblu mentioned "mixed messages" and I couldn't agree more.
There couldn't be more of a mixed message than yours Zim$ and it seems to be straight from the ANC text book.
What Ayiza posted is typical and prevalent of the current attitude by this government towards HIV in South Africa, and is precisely what is causing such harm.
If he is not intellectually armed to protect himself when he posts such provocative statements then he should think twice before doing so. I still don't understand what's it to you, you seem to be his trainer?
In Africa, especially, people follow the example set by their leaders.
It's no secret that the African culture has their fair share of gullibility - hence the high incidences of baby, animal and teenage rape and mutis using body parts (including boys and girls genitals) to cure HIV - a rumour started by Sangomas.
Google it, there are plenty of links.
The African culture is extremely gullible in following bizarre rituals and remedies, and despot leaders.
I used to think that you were able to debate issues (some here still do - that may change when an issue close to heart about SA effects them), however your answers (re-politics) are nothing more than auto-mated responses following ANC protocol, agreeing and accepting, without reservation, all and any ANC standpoints, views and policies.
Which again only re-inforces my statement about why Africa, especially, needs strong leaders.
You mentioned France - so lets talk about France and the French people - early last year the French pri-minister wanted to pass a law which would make a non-paid trial period (a kind of in-service training) a lawful practice, allowing companies to hire young trainees for a short term and not pay them.
Most of Paris and other French cities were brought to a halt while French students protested this law.
I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of this issue but the point is that they were able to think for themselves about how this would impact their lives and make up their own minds and further defy a potential policy of the government.
You posted your statement about Thabo Mbeki never denying the link between HIV and AIDS many months before and I posted the link, so here it is again:
http://www.zmag.org/mbeki.htm
http://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/AIDS/
Here's an interesting link: AIDS denialists who have died from AIDS.
http://www.aidstruth.org/aids-denialists...
It's no secret that a few years back Mbeki was entertaining all the AIDS denialists of the world, there are so many links to it just google "AIDS Mbeki"!!
So what do you call someone who attends AIDS denialist ralleighs and even organises a few, allows them public air time, and provides hospitality?
The damage that he has done is imense irreversible and your standpoint perpetuates the problem. This is interesting, seeing Zim and Alfie debating an issue in this civil manner. Alfie I gave you a thumb up (you would get more if I had my way) not only for your well stated argument, but that Zim in return agreed with your point on Ayiza - though he still doesn't agree with your whole statement. Seems I'll always come back here. You guys have outgrown personalities. I wish this was a live debate so I can see you still shake hands, despite your disagreements. Keep it up guys, most of us will learn from you. I enjoy your civil debate at this moment but unfortunately I think the problem lays elsewhere ! If it was somebody-else who made the comment , he most probbably would escape harsh critisism but people like taking Ayiza appart because he is disliked by many. His last couple of answers had racial undertones and the ''god'' thing is not forgotten yet .Pitty that you mingle with people like him .How fair it was? It was not realy but there were some good arguments made ! You seem very selective in who you defend, Zim. Even though there may be merit in this case, I don't see you defending others than someone who has made blatant racist remarks in the past on this site (the one where he "is sharpening his panga for the whites" comes to mind) - a trait you claim not to ascribe to. Is it favouritism or mere double standards. Your heart is an open book, friend. Ayiza may be correct when he stated that people do not DIE from AIDS, BUT, they would most likely NOT have died, had they NOT been HIV infected. It is always the accompanying disease that "causes" the death. So the poor man died of pneumonia, BECAUSE he had Aids. If he ONLY had had pneumonia, he most likely would have survived the bout of pneumonia. Aids, INDIRECTLY, does cause death. It is just that no one wants to admit this. Maybe yes but the fact is aids still remains a killer Ha, you know how Ayiza and I have had our spats in the past, but I am afraid that I am also with Zim and Ayiza on this one. I've done research, I've read books and I even worked for an AIDS orphan charity in Cape Town and I am sorry, the facts do not add up and the statisitcs for Africa are also dubious;-
The ELISA HIV test for Africa and Europe are not the same.
There is no proven link between HIV and AIDS, some people have died of AIDS without being positive, some people are positive and never seem to get sick.... AZT destroys the immune system and creates addiction as well... etc etc, There is also the connection with polio vaccinations in West-Central Africa during the 1950's using chimpanzee cell cultures,.... funny how the tests were not done in Europe or America.... and so on and so on.....! |
